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    Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. Will you please state your name, sir, for the record.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. William W. Scoggins.
    Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Scoggins?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. 3138 Alaska.
    Mr. BELIN. In what city and State is that?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Dallas.
    Mr. BELIN. Dallas, Tex.?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BELIN. How old a gentleman are you?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Forty-nine.
    Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Taxicab driver, operator.
    Mr. BELIN. For what company?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. The Dallas Transit Go. I drive out of Oak Cliff.
    Mr. BELIN. You drive out of Oak Cliff?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; Oak Cliff, yes, sir.
    Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Scoggins?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Hillsboro, Hill County.
    Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school there?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I went most of the time in McLennan County; most of my schooling was down in McLennan County.
    Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school before you started to work?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Eighth grade.
    Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after school?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, while I was going to school, and that time we lived on a farm, you know, and then after that, well, that would be a hard problem there. I left home when I was rather young, stayed with some of my brothers some, and then done odd jobs around for quite a while. My first job, I guess you might say, would be automobile paint job.
    Mr. BELIN. Automobile paint job?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, New York City.
    Mr. BELIN. New York City. How long did you stay in New York?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately 3 years.
    Mr. BELIN. And then where did you go?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I went back to Texas.
    Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do there?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Done farmwork.
    Mr. BELIN. And about how long did you do farmwork, approximately?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, after-let's see, my life was kind of mixed up. I have been around quite a while in different places and things. After I

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left New York I went to Connecticut to join the CCC camp and stayed there 3 years.
    Mr. BELIN. CCC camp?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. And then I went back to Texas.
    The first thing I done was open up a cafe down there and operated it about a year, and from there went to Waco and worked in a cotton mill, and then I moved back to west Texas to a little town about 18 miles out of Waco, and lived there, and done farmwork for a couple or 3 years, and then I moved to Dallas.
    I think late in 1941, and I worked for Newhoff Packers in Dallas for 2 years, and then I went into the aircraft business and worked for North American approximately 3 years, and then I went into the contracting business for about a year, and went to General Dynamics, worked there approximately 15 1/2 years, and then I have been working for the company, taxicab company, for a couple of years.
    Mr. BELIN. You have been driving a cab for 2 years?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, not quite 2 years.
    Mr. BELIN. A little bit less than 2 years?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. A year and 9 months. I don't know exactly when I started.
    Mr. BELIN. Where were you driving your cab in the early part of the afternoon of November 22, 1963, if you remember?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked up a gentleman at Love Field at approximately 12:35, I would say, and I discharged him at 1 o'clock at 321 North Ewing.
    Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I went around by the Gentlemen's Club which I believe is 125 Patton.
    Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I pulled up and parked at the corner of Patton and 10th and went back down to the club. At first, whenever I passed by, one of the guys hollered at me and asked me did I know the President had been shot, and I made the remark that I had not heard that one. I found a place to park and I came back, and he came back there in a couple of minutes and told me the facts about it. I thought it was some kind of a joke.
    So I had to go plumb up to the corner of 10th before I could find a parking place, and I parked right there on the corner and went back and got me a coke and watched the deal, watched the television.
    Mr. DULLES. Would you speak a little louder, please; I can't quite hear.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I got me a coke and watched television for a few minutes, I would say 10, 12, 15 minutes, there, and went out to eat my lunch.
    Mr. DULLES. What were you seeing on television?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. The deal about the President getting assassinated; and when I got back to my cab and got my lunch, and, well, I noticed a police car cruising east there on 10th Street.
    Mr. BELIN. Where was your cab parked with relationship to the intersection of Patton and 10th?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was headed north on Patton, facing 10th Street, on the right-hand side of the street, right close to where the stop sign had been.
    Mr. BELIN. Now, the right-hand side of the street would be the east or the west?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be the east side. I was headed north.
    Mr. BELIN. All right. Were you on the north side of the intersection or the south side of the intersection?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. South side.
    Mr. DULLES. How near the intersection were you?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Right near. They had a stop sign there and someone had had a wreck previously, I don't know, the sign was down. It was laying there, it had been bent over.
    Representative FORD. Was this a normal stop for you, or how did you happen to be stopped there?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I just went around just like I say. We can take our lunch hour anytime, you know; we can call in and say we are going to be out of

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service for lunch or for anything we might want to be out for, and that what I had done.
    Representative FORD. This was not a regular place where you waited for calls?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No. You see the way we operate there, just where we discharge a passenger, then we call in and tell them where we are at on our radio, and if they have anybody in that vicinity who needs a cab, they give us their address, you see. Of course, now in the downtown area we do have stands to operate from, at the hotels, and then we have some stands at the medical buildings and the depot and the bus stations; and if we want to pick up there, we can pick up and we don't need to call in. But if we want to sit there we can call in that we are in this neighborhood. If they have got someone who has requested a cab, they give us the address, you see.
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, showing you Commission Exhibit 528, I would like to ask you to state, if you know, what this is.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; that is the corner where I was sitting right here, you see, on 10th.
    Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to something in the front-center part of the picture. What is that?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. That is the stop sign that had been knocked over.
    Mr. BELIN. That is the knocked-over stop sign?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. What intersection is that?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Tenth and Patton.
    Mr. BELIN. Now, we offer in evidence remarked Exhibit 527 and also Exhibit 528.
    (The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 527 and 528 were received in evidence.)
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 523, which purports to be a plat, you see the streets of Patton Avenue there and East 10th. Do you see any number on that exhibit, Exhibit 523 which would indicate the approximate location of your car during the period that you are describing here?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it looks to me like this number 10.
    Mr. BELIN. Yon are not pointing to number 10.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Eleven, isn't it?
    Mr. BELIN. It is 11, and here is 9.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It looked like a 10 to me. Number 11.
    Mr. BELIN. Number 11 is, you think, where you were with regard to--
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Within the general area.
    Mr. BELIN. Within the general area of Number 11 on Exhibit 523.
    Now, Mr. Scoggins, you stated you were sitting in your cab as you stopped at your intersection. You had a coke and your lunch.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BELIN. What were you doing, eating your lunch?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I was in the process of eating it.
    Mr. BELIN. You were in the process?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I had taken one or two bites of my sandwich and drank a couple of swallows out of my coke.
    Mr. BELIN. All right.
    Mr. DULLES. What time was this, approximately, as far as you can recall?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Around 1:20 in the afternoon.
    Mr. BELIN. All right. Will you please state then what happened, what you saw, what you did, what you heard?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I first seen the police car cruising east.
    Mr. BELlN. About how fast was it cruising?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Not more than 10 or 12 miles a hour, I would say.
    Mr. BELIN. It was going east on what street?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. On Tenth.
    Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the police car go across right in front of yours?

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    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he went right down the street. He come from the west,
going east On east Tenth.
    Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him.
    Mr. BELIN. All right.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was--he stopped there.
    Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had the police car stopped or not?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.
    Mr. BELIN. Now, you saw a man with a light-colored jacket. With relation to the police car, was the man east of the police car, west of the police car, or kind of
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Just a little east is the best I can remember.
    Mr. BELIN. He was a little bit east of the police car?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was just a little bit forward. The police car headed east and he was a little bit, maybe not more than the front end of the car.
    Mr. BELIN. You thought the man was at the front end of the car?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; approximately.
    Mr. BELIN. But by that you mean the front wheel or front bumper area?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Was he on the sidewalk?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. At the time I saw him; yes.
    Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, I believe you said you saw the man's face, or did you not say that?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't see the man's face from there. I saw the face when he passed the cab.
    Mr. BELIN. What led you to believe that he was walking west?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, he was facing west.
    Mr. BELIN. You mean he was facing west when you first saw him?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was kind of facing that way.
    Mr. BELIN. Was it due west the way the sidewalk was, or was it--
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; west in relation to the sidewalk.
    Mr. BELIN. All right Then what did you see the man do?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him turn facing the street, and then I didn't see him any more after that because he went behind some shrubbery.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you see the police officer do anything?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him get out of the police car.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you see what side he went out of?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He got out of the driver's side, left-hand side.
    Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Then he took about a step, I would say, or approximately one or two steps, and then I wasn't really--you know--I went back to my eating, and about that time I heard the shots.
    Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast.
    Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast.
    Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or say or hear?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Then I saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall.
    Mr. BELIN. Which man did you see fall?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. The policeman. I was excited when I heard them shots, and I started to get out-- since we went back over there the other day and reenacted that scene, I must have seen him fall as I was getting out of my cab, because I got out of the cab, and in the process of getting out of the cab I seen this guy coming around, so I got out of sight. I started to cross the street, but I seen I didn't have enough time to cross the street before he got down there, so I got back behind the cab, and as he cut across that yard I heard him running into

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some bushes, and I looked up and seen him going south on Patton and then when I jumped back in my cab I called my dispatcher.
    Mr. BELIN. Why did you jump out of your cab first when you heard the shots?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Because anytime that there is anything going on that is one thing the cab driver wants to do is to get away from that cab, because the man is going to try--if he had ever seen the cab, he looked back over his left shoulder, and I don't think he even seen the cab-he would have probably jumped in the cab and had me take him somewhere or maybe shot me, too, you know, and I didn't want to be around the cab at anytime while he was in the neighborhood, you know, when there was anything like that going on, or anything, robbery, or anything.
    Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you saw the officer fall. Did you see where he fell?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he fell right by the side of the front, about, a little bit forward of the door, right about the door.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you ever later go up and view the officer?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I went up there, but by the time I got up there the ambulance had already got there. You see I got my dispatcher and was telling him about it, just by that time the ambulance got there.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in the street to indicate where the officer fell?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. There was blood there, of course. They picked the man up by the time I got there, the ambulance did.
    Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? You were in touch with your dispatcher over your radio contact?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. What did you tell your dispatcher?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I told him there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and you see they have a number of cars they are talking to, you know, and I had to holler about three or four times before I got his attention, and then I seen I wasn't going to get through to him, so I just hollered there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and then they went to talking to me then.
    Mr. DULLES. What did they say to you then?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. The first thing they says is do they need an ambulance, and I says, "Sure." And they wanted to know the exact location, and I said right off east of 10th and Patton, and the ambulance was only a block and a quarter or so from the scene, you see, and they just come on right around there.
    Mr. DULLES. And this conversation took you a minute or two, would you estimate?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, a couple of minutes, I would say. It was pretty close.
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what the Commission reporter has marked, or what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 527, I ask you to state if this substance on the street here appears to be anything you had ever seen before.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the officer's blood, blood from the officer.
    Mr. BELIN. Is that located in approximate location to this car in the same relative position that you saw the blood when you were there, or is it any different, if you know?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of excited there, a little bit, and I could be mistaken, but I was thinking he was a little bit closer to the car than that.
    Mr. BELIN. You thought he was a little bit closer to the car than that?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I thought he was, but I could be mistaken.
    Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 529, which shows a picture of a car and appears to be some kind of a stain in the street, does that look to you any closer to the car than Exhibit 527, or does that look to be about the same place?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It looks to be about the same place as that one there does.
    Mr. BELIN. All right. You thought it was a little bit closer to the front?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. All right. I thought it was.
    Mr. BELIN. Did the officer fall, did he fall forward or backward in any way?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He fell forward.

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    Mr. BELIN. He fell forward?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where his head was lying as he fell forward, if you know?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't be sure about that. He kind of fell in a crumpled manner, I would say.
    Mr. BELIN. When you saw the officer fall, when was the next place that you saw the man, or did you see him at the same time you saw the officer fall, the other man?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I saw him coming kind of toward me around that cutoff through there, and he never did look at me. He looked back over his left shoulder like that, as he went by. It seemed like I could see his face, his features and everything plain, you see.
    Mr. BELIN. Was he walking or running or trotting?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Kind of loping, trotting.
    Mr. BELIN. Kind of loping or trotting?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Not in too big a hurry. It didn't seem like at first.
    Mr. BELIN. At first not too big a hurry?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Did he change that at all?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Never did change his pace as long as I saw him. I don't know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece, because then I was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and I never did look and never did get to see him.
    Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.
    Mr. BELIN. Did the pistol appear to be--did he appear to be doing anything with the pistol or not?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He had it, holding it, in his left hand in a manner that the barrel was up like this, and the stock was down here, curved back in here.
    Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the gun had been flipped open at all or not?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say.
    Mr. BELIN. You don't know?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I don't.
    Mr. DULLES. You said he had it in his left hand?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you see where his right hand was?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He was kind of running, kind of like this, in this manner.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the man say anything?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him mutter something like, "poor damn cop," or "poor dumb cop." He said that over twice, and the last, I don't know whether the middle word was "damn" or "dumb," but anyway, he muttered that twice.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say any other word or phrase?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else making any noise at about that time?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't. Of course, there were people coming up there, around there, but I didn't--I didn't notice any.
    Mr. BELIN. Recently in Dallas you were asked to go to the scene of the Tippit shooting to try to reconstruct the positions of the various people at this time; is that correct?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, yes; I was over there
    Mr. BELIN. And you parked your cab in what spot?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. There on Patton, facing 10th at approximately the place I thought I was parked at, the reasonable area where I thought I was. I wouldn't say I was exactly on that spot, but within a foot or so.
    Mr. BELIN. Does Exhibit 530 appear to be a picture of your cab at that point?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BELIN. I also hand you Commission Exhibit 531 and ask you if there is another view of your cab also at that same point?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; it appears to be.
    Mr. BELIN. You were there when those two pictures were taken?

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    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir; I was there whenever they took some picture. I couldn't swear these were the ones, but I imagine it was.
    Mr. BELIN. These are pictures numbered 7 and 22 in that sequence there. Mr. Scoggins, at the time of November 22, 1963, were there as many cars parked along Patton Street as appear to be in these Exhibits 530 and 531?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many on this side here.
    Mr. BELIN. You are speaking now when you say "This side here," you are pointing to the east or west side of the street?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. On the west side.
    Mr. BELIN. There weren't as many on the west side?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. There wasn't as many here as where the pickup truck is setting here.
    Mr. BELIN. That would be down below the second or third car south of East 10th, is that right.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; on this other side it was taken up solid, and the only place I could found is here is the reason I come up here and parked, because the club is down here at this other end, and I would have taken the first parking place I found because, you know, the closest to the club.
    Mr. DULLES. As far as you know, there were no people in these cars that were parked there?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No; there was no one in those cars.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people in any cars parked on either side of Patton Street?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. None.
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you Exhibit 162, have you ever seen any jacket on any person in that area of East 10th and Patton that looks familiar to, or looks anything similar to this exhibit, or does this appear to be lighter or darker than the jacket?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It appears to be a little lighter, but the sleeves look familiar all right, the type of sleeve. He had on a jacket, the type of sleeve of that, but I thought it was a little darker.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether it was a zipper or button jacket or don't you
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I couldn't tell you that.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of trousers the man was wearing?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. The best I can remember they was dark, not too dark, and he had on a light shirt.
    Mr. BELIN. A light shirt?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say it was white, but--
    Mr. BELIN. Would the shirt be lighter than Exhibit 150 or about the same color or darker or would Exhibit 150 look anything like the shirt you thought he was wearing, if you know?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I don't, so I couldn't answer that.
    Mr. BELIN. And you say you don't know, or you think this is different than what he was wearing?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't say about the shirt.
    Mr. BELIN. All right.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I just couldn't.
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you were in Dallas the other day and they took these pictures, they also tried to take a picture through your car windows toward the place where the car of Officer Tippit was parked, is that correct?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where the car of Officer Tippit was parked on November 22d?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was parked approximately between the first and second houses and across the driveway between the houses, pretty well across the driveway.
    Mr. BELIN. Was it parked across a driveway?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. As well as I remember, it was.
    Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Exhibit 522, which purports to be a picture taken of a squad car, and I don't know if you can see through the window a little driveway--

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    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes
    Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the driveway in front of which the squad car was parked?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BELIN. Does that appear to be the two houses between which the driveway ran?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. This would be the two houses--and the other one I didn't know.
    Mr. BELIN. We have a magnifying glass here, and I believe with it we might be able to see the number on that house. Can you see the number over the doorway of that house?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. 404.
    Mr. BELIN. That would be which street?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. That would be on East 10th, on the south side.
    Mr. BELIN. This appears to be, or does not appear to be, the position of the car on November 22?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the approximate position; I would say it was.
    Mr. BELIN. Now, handing you what has been marked Exhibit 532, do you remember when this picture was taken?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember the day. I don't remember the date of it.
    Mr. BELIN. But you remember it was taken?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I remember it was taken.
    Mr. BELIN. Sometime in March of this year?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. You saw the photographer point the camera through the window?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Is this about the view that you had toward the police car on November 22d?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. As you were eating your lunch?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. And it appears that you can see through one of the windows there the police car, is that correct?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Was the police car at the time Exhibit 532 was taken, was it in the approximate same position that the car of Officer Tippit was on November
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think so, yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Well, you saw the police car there?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Was it parked about in front of that driveway
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I would say in the same area. You know, it may not be on the same inch.
    Mr. BELIN. Within a foot or two?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would take Exhibit 523 and see if there is any number on Exhibit 523 which corresponds to the position of the man who was walking along East 10th Street, or wherever he was when you first saw him.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Approximately where 16 is.
    Mr. BELIN. Yes; you are pointing to the position where the arrow is in number 16?
    Mr. BALL. Mr. Belin, he didn't see him walking.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him there.
    Mr. BELIN. I used the word. "walking." Pardon me. When you first saw him he was on point 16. Where did you see him when you next saw him, where did you see him when he moved?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. When I next saw him he was in the process of running up 10th Street.
    Mr. BELIN. You next saw him after the shooting then?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I did.
    Mr. BELIN. About where was he on 10th Street when you next saw him?

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    Mr. SCOGGINS. He was on the sidewalk when I saw him, about, I would say, about--I am trying to figure out now--about number 21 or back a little piece from 21.
    Mr. BELIN. Here is the squad car and 21 would be just east of the squad car?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him there?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. What was he doing when you saw him in the area of 21 in Exhibit 523?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He was proceeding west on 10th and had--
    Mr. BELIN. All right. I wonder if you would just take this pen and on Exhibit 523 mark the route that you think this man took.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. This is a sidewalk here.
    Mr. BELIN. That is the sidewalk.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. This is the house back here.
    Mr. BELIN. This is the corner house, this is the second house, this is the third house, 400, 404 and 410.
    Mr. DULLES. What does that line show, Mr. Belin?
    Mr. BELIN. This is to show the movement of the man from point 21.
    Mr. DULLES. Along the sidewalk going west?
    Mr. BELIN. Yes.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He ran to the point in the shrubbery.
    Mr. BELIN. Is that as far as you have seen him go?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. You have now marked by ink line commencing on Exhibit 523 to a point that I will mark is the route that you believe you saw the man take. Where were you when you saw him take this route?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him coming, you see, over here, I got out of my cab and I started to cross the street to find a place to get behind, and I got midway across the street, and then I got back and hid behind the cab. I didn't see him in here, but I saw him when he hit the shrubbery, when he hit that shrubbery.
    Mr. BELIN. There is an opening in part of that shrubbery?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, and I heard that when he hit that, and he was looking over his left shoulder at that time. I first saw him and then I got out--
    Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would show us on Exhibit 531, if you would put an X there, the approximate location you were when you saw this man.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. When I first saw him?
    Mr. BELIN. No; when you first--yes, you can put where you first saw him.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I was sitting inside my cab when I first saw him.
    Mr. BELIN. I mean after the shooting.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. After the shooting I guess when I first saw him, right along about here.
    Mr. BELIN. All right, we are going to put--you had gotten out of your car, and we are going to put a letter "A" with an arrow there. Where were you when you saw him coming through the bushes, or by the bushes?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I was back there beside my cab.
    Mr. BELIN. You were still at that same point?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, when I first saw him I left the cab and I went out to the middle of the street.
    Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him and he was at the point you marked, position 21 here on Exhibit 523?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Here.
    Mr. BELIN. At point "A." Then you went to the--you went out to the street, in the street, and came back to point "A" on Exhibit 531--were you standing or were you crouched?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of crouched down behind the cab.
    Mr. BELIN. All right. How did you see him if you were crouched?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, whenever he run through those bushes I looked up again, you see.
    Mr. BELIN. You looked through your cab window?

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    Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him--whenever I heard him hit those bushes--
    Mr. BELIN. Did you stand or just look through your cab window?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I just looked and saw he was going down there.
    Mr. BELIN. About how close was this man to you when you saw him, the closest when you saw him coming through the bushes, approximately.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, I would say from here to that chair down there.
    Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. About that chair down there.
    Mr. BELIN. 12 feet?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. DULLES. Referring to your tracing of the path that the man later found to be Oswald followed, he went through the lower of these two bushes there, did he? He went right through it?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. You see there is an opening in there.
    Mr. DULLES. But he didn't apparently take the opening, according to this, because he went right through the bushes.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, because I didn't see any opening in there. Was there an opening in there?
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, for the record, when you are referring to 523, there is an opening between the shrubbery, but within the shrubbery itself there is an opening, and I think it will appear if you--
    Mr. DULLES. I think the witness testified he heard the bushes move.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Yes. But the opening within the bushes, is it a large opening or a small opening between the bushes?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not too large, but a man can get through very easily by going through.
    Mr. DULLES. But he hits the bushes as he goes through?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. DULLES. I see. That makes it clear.
    Mr. BELIN. It is not the wide opening between the two sets of bushes.
    Mr. DULLES. It is not quite as wide.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It is an opening between the bushes themselves, like maybe someone had planted three bushes and maybe one of them had died to break the shrubbery.
    Mr. DULLES. That has happened to me.
    Mr. BELIN. What I am saying, Mr. Dulles, on Exhibit 523 there are two groups of bushes. Within the lower group of bushes there is a slight space to which the witness is referring.
    Mr. DULLES. I see. It is not the space here.
    Mr. BELIN. It is not the space between the two sets of bushes.
    Mr. DULLES. At this point do you recall whether he was running or walking or what pace was he going at?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He was going at a kind of lope.
    Mr. DULLES. Lope?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, what you might call a little trot. He did not seem in too big a hurry, but he wasn't walking.
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, you last saw the man when he was at the point that you let the line stop at on Exhibit 523, is that correct?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. That would be in the approximate location.
    Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I got on my radio.
    Mr. BELIN. And then you told us about calling your dispatcher?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I got back in my cab to call my dispatcher, you see.
    Mr. BELIN. Yes.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and took him

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away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if we can find him."
    Mr. DULLES. Before you ask the next question, I wonder if I can ask one question here. Do you know whether the ambulance came as a result of the message you sent?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't.
    Mr. DULLES. You do not know?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. DULLES. From the time angle, do you think that could have happened?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It was awful fast if it did. They got there awfully quickly if they did.
    Mr. DULLES. You don't know of any other warning going in; you put your warning in, and that is all you know about it?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. That is all I know about it at that time, and I do know this other gentleman called after I got up to the car, he called in, and they told him it had already been.
    (Off the record discussion.)
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, I started to ask you about the revolver of the policeman when you came and saw him. This was in his holster or on the street?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It was on the street whenever I saw it.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was with relation to the policeman's body?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It was there pretty close to his body, you know, like kind of under his body when they picked him up. It either fell out of his holster or was laying on the ground, one, I don't know which.
    Mr. BELIN. What did you see him do? This man came up and picked up the policeman's gun. He picked it up and said, "Let's go see if we can find him?"
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I thought the man was a kind of police, Secret Service or something, I didn't know, and I take him and we drove around over the neighborhood looking, and I still didn't know what kind--I still thought he was connected with the Police department in some way.
    Mr. BELIN. What route did you take as you drove over the neighborhood?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't tell you.
    Mr. BELIN. You can't tell us the route you took over the neighborhood?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I was doing the driving and he was doing the directing.
    Mr. BELIN. He directed you where to go?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually, I couldn't say where he was going.
    Mr. BELIN. All right.
    Representative FORD. Were you in your cab?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Representative FORD. When you saw the pistol it wasn't in Officer Tippit's hands?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir; oh, he never did have a pistol in his hand, as far as I know.
    Mr. BELIN. You saw him when he was falling?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was holding his stomach.
    Mr. BELIN. You saw him holding his stomach as he fell?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hands?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. If he did I couldn't see it, and I don't think he ever got to his pistol from what I saw.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you see the man with the gun as he opened his gun, as he was going to the west on--up 10th Street at all after the shooting?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I didn't see him.
    Mr. BELIN. After you went around to look for the man, did you find him at all?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No. We drove around and asked several people, but we did not see anybody that looked like him.
    Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

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    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, by that time there was more policemen there than you can shake a stick at. They were all over that place, and we stopped the cab.
    Mr. BELIN. At about what time, do you know offhand?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. About 1:30, I guess, approximately 1:30; between 1:30 and 1:35, I would say. We cruised around several blocks looking for him, and we--one of these police cars came by and this fellow who was with me stopped it, and we got back in the car and went back up to the scene, and he give them the pistol, and that time is when I found out he wasn't an officer.
    Mr. BELIN. Then what happened, or what did you do?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they was questioning a lot of people and questioning everybody, and they was talking, and so I went back and got on my radio and contacted my supervisor, and they wanted me to come into the office and make a statement, and so I did, the cab company. One of the supervisors got a statement of it, and he asked me did the police, did I give them a statement, and I told him no because, and he said, "Well, why didn't you?"I said, "They didn't ask me. They talked with everybody else."
    So the next day they took me down and put me through a lineup, showed me a lineup of four people, and I identified the one that I had seen the day before.
    Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this question. First of all, do you remember, or can you describe the man you saw on November 22 with the gun?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He was a medium-height fellow with, kind of a slender look, and approximately, I said 25, 26 years old, somewhere along there.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the color of his hair?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was light; let's see, was it light or not-medium brown, I would say.
    Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Medium brown, I would say--now, wait a minute. Now, medium brown or dark.
    Mr. BELIN. Medium brown or dark hair?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Was he a Negro or a white man?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. White, light complected, not real brown.
    Mr. BELIN. Was he fat, average build or thin?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, he was slender; not real slender, but you know--
    Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing glasses or not?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    BELIN. That he had on?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember about him, the color of his shoes?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't say that.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any jewelry he might have had on?
    SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. BELIN. You say you went down to the police station when, Mr. Scoggins, approximately?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. You mean the time of day it was?
    Mr. BELIN. Was it the same day of the shooting or the next day?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, it was the next day.
    Mr. BELIN. Morning, afternoon, or evening, if you remember?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, the best I can remember, they called me down from the cab stand, the police came down to the office and picked me up. Well, the other guy--I was close to the downtown area, and it didn't take me long to get there, and I waited quite a while before the other man, he was quite out a ways, and it was before dinner.
    Mr. BELIN. It was before dinner?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, whenever they called me in.
    Mr. BELIN. Would it have been on the afternoon of November 23, to the best of your recollection?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. When they took me down there it was along about dinner time.

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    Representative FORD. What do you mean by dinner time? In various parts of the country dinner and supper get confused a little bit. Was it the noon meal or the evening meal?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Representative FORD. Yes what? It was the noon meal?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. They took you down about the time of the noon meal, is that correct; they took you to the police station?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think that would be about the time.
    Mr. BELIN. Sometime after you got there after the noon meal you saw the lineup, is that correct?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. How many people were in the lineup, if you can remember?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Four.
    Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.
    Mr. BELIN. You didn't know his name as Oswald at that time, did you, or did you not?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, the next day I did. But, of course I didn't know what his name was the day that I picked him out.
    Mr. BELIN. You saw a man in the lineup?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Did anyone tell you any particular man was Oswald in the lineup?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened in the police station with regard to the lineup, what they did to you, what they said to you, and what you said to them, and so on.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, they had the four men up there in the lineup, and before they brought them in they told us what they wanted us to do, to look them over and be sure we was, in our estimation, we was right on the man, and which one it was, the one that we saw, the one that I saw.
    Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you one of the men was the man you saw or not, or did they tell you "See if you can"--just what did they say? Did they say "Here is a lineup, see if you-can identify anyone," or did they say, "One of the men in the lineup"--
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I believe those are the words they used. I am not--
    Mr. BELIN. Did all of these men look different to you? Were most of them fat, or were most of them thin, or some fat, some thin, some tall, some short?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. There were two of them--the one that I identified as the one I saw over at Oak Cliff, and there was one I saw similar to him, and the other two was a little bit shorter.
    Mr. DULLES. Had you been looking at television or seeing television prior to your appearance here at the lineup?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. DULLES. You had not?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, sir.
    Representative FORD. Had you been working this Saturday morning with your cab?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. In other words, you went to work Saturday morning at the regular time?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Representative FORD. And were working when they asked you to come down to the cab stand to go over to the police station?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. All right.
    Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald in the newspapers prior to the time you went to the police station lineup?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I think I saw one in the morning paper.

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    Mr. BELIN. Do you subscribe to the morning or evening paper?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I take the evening paper myself.
    Mr. BELIN. You went down and bought a morning paper?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't go out. I was looking at one of the--some of the cab drivers had it.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you see any television picture on the morning of November 23 of Lee Harvey Oswald?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I have never until this day seen it.
    Mr. BELIN. On television?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I never have.
    Representative FORD. Do you have a television in your home?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes sir; I do. But I don't--when I get home I will read the paper, and after you work about 12 hours you don't feel like fooling around with television too much.
    Mr. BELIN. What number man in the lineup did you identify as having seen on November 22?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Number 3.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you have the man turn around, or could you--
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, they turned him around.
    Mr. BELIN. Did they turn just one man around or all of them?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No; they had them all.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if the number 3 man in the lineup was wearing the same clothes that the man you saw at the Tippit shooting wore?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He had on a different shirt, and he didn't have a jacket on. He had on kind of a polo shirt.
    Mr. BELIN. Before you went to view the lineup, did any of the police officers show you a picture of this man?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. BELIN. Sometime later, after the lineup, did any of the police officers show you with a picture of anyone and ask you if you could identify him?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was an FBI man or a Dallas policeman or a Secret Service agent?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He was an FBI or a Secret Service.
    Mr. BELIN. What did he ask you and what did you tell him?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He gave me some pictures, showed me several pictures there,, which was, some of them were, pretty well resembled him, and some of them didn't, and they looked like they was kind of old pictures, and I think I picked the wrong picture. I am not too--
    Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him, if you remember?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't really--I know he showed me his credentials.
    Mr. BELIN. Did he say to you something like "These are pictures we have of Lee Harvey Oswald"? Did he use that name in front of you, or did he say, "Here are some pictures. See if you can identify them"--if you remember?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't remember, but after I got through looking at them and everything, and I says, I told them one of these two pictures is him, out of this group he showed me, and the one that was actually him looked like an older man than he was to me. Of course, I am not too much on identifying pictures. It wasn't a full shot of him, you know, and then he told me the other one was Oswald.
    Representative FORD. Had you narrowed the number of pictures from more than two to two?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Representative FORD. In other words, they showed you pictures of how many people altogether, how many different people, your best estimate?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say 4 or 5.
    Representative FORD. And you narrowed the number of 4 or 5 down to 2?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Down to two; yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, at the time of the shooting, did you see any pedestrians standing at the corner of East 10th and Patton, any of the corners there?

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    Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't see anybody. I was kind of excited.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other person walking along the street there?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Not at the time of the shooting, I didn't.
    Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you can think of that you haven't told us here that might be relevant to what you saw in connection with the Tippit shooting?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I can't--nothing that I know of. That is the first time I ever seen anything like that happen, and I was pretty well excited and mixed up, and not knowing what to do or what not to do. But actually, of course, right after the shooting, I saw a number of people come running over, you see, from everywhere.
    Mr. BELIN. Were they all men?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, they were just people.
    Mr. BELIN. General Carr, do you have any questions?
    Mr. CARR. No, sir. I was exploring with him, but I guess we won't get into it.
    Mr. BELIN. Those are all the questions I have. Just a second. When you saw a picture in the morning paper of Lee Harvey Oswald, did this look similar to the man you saw at the Tippit shooting, or did it look different?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I would say similar; yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the same man?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Representative FORD. What kind of eyesight do you have?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I had my eyes examined when I went to work for the cab company and the lady said I had remarkable eyesight. You know, they have after I went to work, after a while, I had to go get my eyes examined.
    Representative FORD. You had your eyes examined subsequent to your employment with the cab company?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, it was sometime after, maybe 6 months after.
    Mr. DULLES. How many years ago was that?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Oh, about a year, approximately.
    Representative FORD. At that time what did the eye examiner tell you?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. She said I had excellent eyesight and vision.
    Representative FORD. You don't wear glasses?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Representative FORD. What about your hearing?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I can hear. I got good hearing. I never did have it examined or anything, but I can hear everything.
    Representative FORD. Have you ever had any difficulty with the law, have you ever had any trouble with officers of the law?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I got a ticket for parking that I had to pay.
    Representative FORD. That is a traffic violation.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. No; I really haven't had any problems that amount to anything otherwise than traffic violations.
    Representative FORD. Nothing other than traffic violations?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I was picked up one time in New York City for stowing away on a tugboat.
    Mr. BELIN. Stowing away on a boat?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Actually what happened--
    Mr. DULLES. How old were you then?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. 17 or 18. I was sleeping in a boxcar and they put that boxcar on a tugboat and sent it across the river.
    Mr. DULLES. You stowed away without knowing it.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. DULLES. I don't think that is a very grave offense.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never have been in any grave trouble.
    Mr. BELIN. One more question, Mr. Scoggins. You rode up here to Washington on an airplane with Mrs. Markham, did you not?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Before you saw Mrs. Markham the other day, did you ever recognize her as having seen her from the time of the Tippit shooting at all or not?

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    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I saw her down there talking to the policemen after I came back. You see, I saw her talking to them.
    Mr. BELIN. You never actually saw her standing on the street, did you?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I never actually observed her there.
    Mr. BELIN. All right.
    Mr. DULLES. When you say, "I came back" is that when you got into your car?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had got in the car and toured the neighborhood and then the policemen came along and I left my cab setting down there and got in a car with them and left the scene.
    Mr. DULLES. At what stage did you see Mrs. Markham?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had gotten back up there. After I had drove around in the neighborhood looking for Oswald or looking for this guy.
    Mr. DULLES. It was after that?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It was after that.
    (Discussion off the record.)
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you identified the man in the lineup at the police station on November 23, was there any other person who at the same time was asked to identify a man in that lineup?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, one other.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you know-one other person?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you know what that man's name is or what his occupation is?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, he drives a taxicab.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you know his name?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; his name is Bill Whaley.
    Mr. BELIN. Whaley?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I think it is Whaley. I didn't know him from Adam until that day, you know, and he said his name was Whaley.
    Mr. BELIN. When you were there and identified a man, had Whaley already identified that man or not? I mean, did you hear Whaley or see Whaley identify that man?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No. He was sitting over on my left.
    Mr. BELIN. He. was on your left?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was dark. They turned the lights out where we were sitting. We could see the man with lights up there.
    Mr. BELIN. Could you see Mr. Whaley at the time he made the identification?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I suppose if I would have looked over there I could have seen that there was a man there, that I could have recognized him.
    Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at Mr. Whaley at the time?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. BELIN. Did you make your identification by your voice or by your hands?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. By my hands, using--I put up three fingers.
    Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you ahead of time to hold up the number of fingers for the man that you saw?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Mr. BELIN. How many fingers did you hold up?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Three.
    Mr. BELIN. At the time you held up your three fingers, did you know how many fingers Mr. Whaley was holding up?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
    Mr. BELIN. Then did you know whether or not Mr. Whaley had identified the man?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't.
    Mr. BELIN. Was there any person or were there any persons standing between you and Mr. Whaley?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. That I don't know because I did not look over there.
    Mr. DULLES. Could Mr. Whaley, in your opinion, see you holding up these fingers?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No, no. I made sure of that because I had my hand down like this.

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    Mr. BELIN. When you had your hand down you are putting it in front of your belt?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. As well as I could remember I had it down kind of like this here. I don't know whether I used my right or my left hand, but I didn't hold up three fingers like this, but I held them down just about like this.
    Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to your right hand and putting it somewhat about a few inches above the buckle of your belt; it that about where you held up your fingers?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. About as well as I could remember.
    Mr. BELIN. What happened after you held up your fingers, did someone see you holding your fingers up there?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Representative FORD. Where were they standing beside you so that they could see your fingers?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, this gentleman was standing over back a piece to my left, sir.
    Representative FORD. Was it close to you, sir?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. There was one man on my right. He was Secret Service or FBI, I think FBI; and the other man was a policeman, Dallas policeman.
    Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Whaley was making his identification at the same time that you did or did he make it before or after?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No. All I know is that we viewed them at the same time.
    Mr. DULLES. He viewed them at the same time?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. DULLES. You don't know at what time Mr. Whaley made his identification?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him make the identification?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't even see him.
    Mr. DULLES. You don't know what his identification was?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never asked him which one or nothing, because I never did discuss it with him at all after that.
    Representative FORD. When you brought your cab up to the corner of 10th and Patton, did you just conclude or had you just concluded dropping a passenger?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, approximately five minutes before that.
    Representative FORD. Do you keep a record of the trips that you take?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
    Representative FORD. During your working day?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. If I pick up a passenger, say, like 28 minutes to 12 o'clock, we put 20 minutes to 12. We don't put the odd minutes down.
    If we let him out 2 minutes after 12, we put down 12 o'clock. I know I let him out at 1 o'clock, maybe a minute or two after. We do put the destination we leave from and the destination he is going to on our records sheet.
    Representative FORD. What does your record show about this last trip?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked him up at Love Field and carried him to 321 North Ewing, as well as I can remember now, that was the address.
    Representative FORD. And your record shows that?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. When I picked him up, the mileage started from, the mileage I let him out on the speedometer. When I picked him up we put the mileage down. We don't put the tenth down, and when we let him out we put the mileage and the time; and when we pick him up we put the mileage and the time, and the destination where we start and where we let him off, and the amount the fare was.
    Representative FORD. And your last entry shows what for that day?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't know what the last entry was. Up until then that was the one where I let the man off at. It was an apartment building. Of course, l don't have the apartment number, anything like that. The guy says, "I want to go to 321 North Ewing," and that is where I take him. It is an apartment. Of course now, if somebody calls in for a cab at a certain address, if it is an apartment, they have to give their apartment number so we could find it.

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    Representative FORD. How far was this last destination to the point of 10th and Patton?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It was less than a mile, about a half mile or maybe--well, let's see, it was closer to a mile, I would say.
    Representative FORD. Was there any particular reason why you went to the corner of 10th and Patton?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I belong to that club there, and I was going around there to get me a coca cola that I could have gotten anywhere else, but I know a lot of the guys.
    Representative FORD. What is the club called?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It is a gentleman's club, a domino parlor where we play dominos.
    Representative FORD. It is at what address?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. 123 or 125 South Patton.
    Mr. BELIN. About where is it in relation to East 10th and Patton, how far away, a block, two blocks?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not a block. It is just about, I would say, just--if it was measured it would be a little over a half block from where I was parked at to the place, you see.
    Mr. BELIN. I wonder, perhaps, if we can see it on any of these pictures, Mr. Scoggins. Do you see it in this picture, Exhibit 530?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I can see the building.
    Mr. BELIN. Let's see the building here.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. That is it up there.
    Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can't, perhaps, put on Exhibit 530 an arrow which points to this building, and we will put "G" for the gentleman's club; is that correct? Is that the building to which you are referring?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, we have another picture that we would like to have you identify, Commission Exhibit 534. This is a picture in which the camera appears to be heading in what direction?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be heading east--I mean west on 10th Street.
    Mr. BELIN. That picture was taken the other day at the time you drove your cab back to that scene, is that correct?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think it was; yes.
    Mr. BELIN. Does this appear to be the position your cab was in at the time of the shooting of Officer Tippit?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. BELIN. All right. At this time we offer and introduce into evidence all exhibits up through 534, except we do not have a 533 because we renumbered the original Exhibit 533, so we do not have a 533.
    Do you have anything more, Congressman Ford?
    Representative FORD. Those exhibits will be admitted.
    (Items identified as Commission Exhibits through No. 534, with the exception of Exhibit No. 533, were admitted in evidence.)
    Mr. DULLES. Mr. Scoggins, you have referred, I believe, to a conversation you had with Mr. Whaley, I think his name is, and I would like to have you just recount what you recall of what Mr. Whaley said to you, and where he said it, and at what time.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, this conversation we are talking about, while we were down there waiting.
    Mr. DULLES. Down where, down at the police station?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No; down at the cab office--it is a cab office at 610 South Akard Street, you know.
    Mr. DULLES. A cab stand?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. We call it our main office.
    Mr. DULLES. And Mr. Whaley's cab belonged to the same company as your cab?
    SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. Only he drives out of downtown, which office is 610 South Akard Street, that is the number. They have a building there, a large building, with all the dispatching offices and everything, and mine, of course,

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I have got the same dispatchers, we all belong to the same company. I drive an Oak Cliff cab, and he drives downtown.
    Mr. DULLES. Relate what Mr. Whaley said to you.
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He didn't relate it to me. He was talking to the others.
    Mr. DULLES. He was talking to cabdrivers?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He was talking to one of the--
    Mr. DULLES. Where did this take place?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. It was down at the cabstand.
    Mr. DULLES. Was this on Saturday after the assassination?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was telling them where he picked him up and where he took him to.
    Mr. DULLES. And that is what you recall?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; because I didn't know him. I wasn't acquainted with the man.
    Mr. DULLES. You were not acquainted with Mr. Whaley?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. No. Before he came down there that morning I wouldn't have known him from Adam, you know, just wouldn't have had any idea who he was.
    Mr. DULLES. Would you recall what he said as to where he picked up the man and where he took him?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. He said he picked him up at the Greyhound bus and carried him to a neighborhood, no particular address, on North Beckley, the 500 block.
    Mr. DULLES. Have you anything more on that, Mr. Belin?
    Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I do have one other question.
    Mr. DULLES. Proceed then.
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not your dispatcher recorded any time on his sheets as to the time you called in after the Tippit shooting?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. When I was down there giving my statement to my supervisor, he asked me what time it was, and I said I don't have any idea, so he picked up the phone and called the dispatcher, and he said it was 1:23.
    Mr. BELIN. That is the time that he recorded it?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it was 1:23 in the afternoon.
    Mr. BELIN. When you called in after the shooting?
    Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
    Mr. DULLES. Anything else?
    Mr. BELIN. No, sir.
    Mr. DULLES. Any further questions? Well, thank you very much, Mr. Scoggins.